SawxBlog.com Ticket Center

  • Curt's Pitch for ALS

Blog Affiliates


  • blog search directory
    Save the Net
    Sports

    Sports Blogs
    Sports Blogs
    Top Blog Lists



    eXTReMe Tracker

« Watch Dustin Pedroia's Press Conference - Thoughts on Mikey Lowell and the Cy Young | Main | Sox to Open in Japan, Youk Shaves, Celtics Dominate, Life is Grand »

November 14, 2007

Comments

truth

40 more innings; that's the difference, and why Sabathia earned his Cy Young.

His manager might want to contemplate whether those 40 extra regular season innings lead to his playoff collapse. I'm old enough that I remember Billy Martin ruining that fabulous 1980 A's pitching staff by pitching dozens of complete games.

It was the right decision. Beckett earned his postseason hardware.

Derek Hixon

You should also be old enough to realize that modern day bullpen's weren't around back then and pitchers NEEDED to pitch that many more innings. Pitchers pitching 300+ innings per season is almost non-existent now and has been on the decline for the past 3 decades. We now have long relievers, set-up men, and closers in the game, that if a manager is correctly using his club, allows him to use the best pitcher in the best scenario.

IP is an old baseball stat that isn't as important as what you're doing in those IP.

People have such tunnel vision with IP it's actually quite infuriating. There's more then just that, and if you look at the whole picture it's a really close race, and if IP is what tipped the scale it's pretty sad that the baseball writers don't truly understand the game they get paid to report on.

Chuck

I think the whole problem with Sox fans and Beckett not winning is that this is announced after the post season. Voting is done prior to the post season starting. So it greatly leans you towards Beckett after witnessing what he did compared to what Sabathia did in the post season. Thing is, you basically have to ignore the entire post season (and any and all impressions left from performances)in order to make a fair evaluation. Not being a Sox fan, I still thought Beckett should have won. But I was reading a story 2 days ago that showed who the "ESPN experts" picked and 15 picked Sabathia (including Gammons, Kurtjen and other Sox loyalists)and Becket only got 4 nods and Lackey got 1.

So for some reason, outside of New England, the entire country on a whole thought Sabathia should have won, and pretty much by a landslide. And not just in this "Experts" poll, but also in several other polls that I was reading. I guess it's just perspective and needing to get outside of the Sox influence in order to make a fair evaluation. I don't know, I thought Beckett was better on the whole, but I am under the New England influence living here.

Of course any Sox fan is going to say their player deserved it more than another. And that's what fans are supposed to do. Although I think you are really stretching it trying to compare division averages and runs scored on a whole instead of taking the pitchers opposing stats. The way you showed it is basically insignificant to compare what a division did against the rest of MLB, instead of strictly that pitcher. Some pitchers will only face a division opponent 1 time in 18 meetings (and sometimes not even if they miss a start or two) due to the way the rotation works out, whereas that same pitcher may face the worst team in the league say 4-5 times in those 18 games, so your division breakdown is pretty meaningless.

As for run support, it does matter. It can tack on 5 or more wins a year. That 3-2 no decision or 1-0 loss turns into a win. Or vice versa, that 7-6 game turns into a loss. Just ask Mussina about being robbed a few years ago when his stats were superior in almost every category except wins but Clemens won the Cy Young based upon like 5 more wins even though Clemens received like 2+ more runs per game in support.

Derek Hixon

I agree with the whole New England thing and am the first to admit I'm going to be WAY more biased towards Beckett, however I disagree with the division part.

Beckett started 30 times in 2007 and 14 of those times was against the East. Of Sabathia's 34 starts 18 of those were in the Central (with 4 against the Royals, heh heh). So that's certainly a factor that should be considered.

As far as wins go, I don't think that's a stat voters should be swayed on because wins are something pitchers have no control over. Heck, there's even been no hitters thrown where the pitcher has lost. Wins (much like ERA) is an outdated stat that really doesn't reflect anything a pitcher does. I think it's crap when a pitcher wins something for the "most wins" when anyone who knows baseball knows that doesn't mean he's the best pitcher.

If these awards do anything they make it fun to look back on the season and crunch numbers.

Chuck

So you make fun of Sabathia facing the Royals 4 times? The Royals finished with a 69-93 record whereas Tampa finished with a 66-96 record and Orioles finished with a 69-93 record. How many times did Beckett face the Rays and Orioles this past season? See...this was my point. I am not saying that the stats are useless, I am saying the way you represented the stats are meaningless. Show me what these teams did against him. So Beckett faced the East 30 times. That leaves 132 games against other pitchers to make their stats better. I think you are using to broad of a stat to try to prove your point.

Yes, I know that the Central had the 3 worst hitting teams in the AL, but how did they hit against the Central? How many times did he face the Tigers? They were the 2nd best hitting team in the AL and 3rd in MLB? I mean only half (or slightly less than half) are played against your own division. Anywhere from 72-78 games I believe are in your own division. So that means saying the East has better stats, when they played 80+ games outside their division, accumulating stats, yet more than half come from outside the division. Who's to say these better stats aren't because they played 80 games against weaker divisions?

Ok, I don't know what my point is anymore. I'm sick and my head hurts....so I can't really focus or get what my original point was lol. But these stats will continue to be used until you become president of the writers association and can sway people to look at other perspectives. it's just hte way baseball is. I mean WHIP/OPS/OBP was hardly looked at until like 10 years ago. Things will evolve eventually, baseball is traditionalist and slow.

I personally thought Beckett should have won, he didn't. But it wasn't like he was robbed. Sabathia's stats are right there with him that it isn't glaring or a no brainer. Give Beckett the 3 starts he missed to injury and his innings are up by 24-30, etc., etc.

Derek Hixon

Hah hah, that comment was awesome Chuck. I hate when I catch myself try to make up a point but then just feel myself trailing off.

First I agree with you, it's not like C.C. wasn't deserving of the award, he had a sick year. My Cy Robbed was more of a "Hearld-esque" headline to draw attention.

What this "debate" may help me with is to maybe start to try and figure out (for the 2007 season at least) what the effect of a pitchers division can have on his stats.

I'll have to obviously figure out base criteria but it could be pretty fun. Let me know if you want in! :-)

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

SawxBlog Features

  • Real Red Sox Terror Level Alert


    Boston's Most Valuable Blogger Nominee, 2011

2008: Jon Lester No Hitter Pics

  • Who's On First?
    Some pics from a magical May night.

2007 Red Sox Rolling Rally Parade Gallery 4

  • Tree Guy
    Here's the fourth and final series of pictures taken at the Red Sox Rolling Rally Parade on 10/30/07. Enjoy!

2007 Red Sox Rolling Rally Parade Gallery 3

  • More Youk
    Here's the third series of pictures taken at the Red Sox Rolling Rally Parade on 10/30/07. Enjoy!

2007 Red Sox Rolling Rally Parade Gallery 2

  • Wally
    Here's the second series of pictures taken at the Red Sox Rolling Rally Parade on 10/30/07. Enjoy!

2007 Red Sox Rolling Rally Parade Gallery 1

  • Crowd from Rooftop
    Here's the first Series of pictures taken at the Red Sox Rolling Rally Parade on 10/30/07. Enjoy!

2007 World Series: Game One

  • Monster Cop
    Photos of Game 1 of the 2007 World Series. My girlfriend Jeannine and I took my Dad and didn't tell him until we were basically at the Gate. One of the best nights of my life hands down.

2007 Hall of Fame Visit - Cooperstown, NY

  • Costanza!
    On the way home from a good friends wedding Jeannine and I decided to stop off at the Hall of Fame (which never gets old for me), however with limited time we decided to make it a tour of only things Red Sox. Enjoy!

2007 Dad Game: 9/10

  • Red Sax
    This was the first time I've been to a game with my Dad since the early 90's and it was just awesome, especially with everything that happened with my Mom a few weeks ago. I know she was watching the game with us and had to have been happy to see us happy.

2006 Marthon Monday

  • Cooking out
    Marathon Monday (Patriots Day) is a great tradition in Boston. The Sox always start early in the a.m. and the marathon is on it's final stage right outside of Kenmore as the game lets out. This is a photo tour of our experiance, enjoy!

2006, 9/6 - Red Sox vs. White Sox

  • Trot
    Some pictures from some great field box seats from a not so great game.

2005: RSN at Wrigley Field

  • Wrigley Field Sign
    This past Mothers Day I was visiting Chicago and attended a Cubs/Phillies game. This was my first time at Wrigley Field and I was embraced by my NL cousins. Chris & I represented the Red Sox and I was congratulated on the 2004 season by numerous Cubbie fans. Here you'll find 11 pics from the game.

2005 BDD Playoff Push Party

  • Bar & TV's
    Boston.com and Boston Dirt Dogs had a playoff push party at Game On! in Fenway Park on September 19. The game didn't go so well as the Sox lost, however, a lot of people had a good time hanging out while getting to "meet" the trophy!

2004 World Series: Game One

  • Mounted Police
    My brother Chris flew into Boston from Chicago to help me root on and pull for the Sox in the Series. We went right from Logan Airport to the Park and ended up watching the game across the street from Fenway at Bills Bar on Landsdown Street. We looked into scalping tickets but standing room only were going for $1,200 and up!This was a great and memorable day to be able to be with my brother in Boston to see the Red Sox in the World Series. This is a snap shot of two weeks of my life that provided a lot of sorrow, joy, sleep deprivation, and hangovers. Two of the best weeks of my life...